An Accidental Study: Botox, Acetylcholine, & the Effects of 5 Mos CDP Choline Supplementation

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DistinguishedHeathen
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An Accidental Study: Botox, Acetylcholine, & the Effects of 5 Mos CDP Choline Supplementation

Post by DistinguishedHeathen »

For background, I'm a 37 F, 3/4 with a 71 yo 3/4 mom who recently went into significant cognitive decline. Though I didn't buy Dr. Bredesen's book or begin a full lifestyle intervention until I saw how bad mom had gotten in Sept., just a few months earlier, I stumbled upon what I believe is an important piece of the puzzle (in my/our case): Choline. And I happened upon it thanks to Botox.

In July, I remarked to my partner how odd it was that my Botox always set in much faster than doctors say is possible. Most tell you that you won't see the full effects for up to a week, but for me? The time from injection to a frozen brow has always been about 12 hours. I'd get Botox in the afternoon and wake up smooth and expressionless.

Having just gotten Botox the day before, I wondered why I was such a rapid responder. So I decided to learn exactly how Botox works.

Turns out, it prevents the release of acetylcholine (which, in overly simple terms, is the neurotransmitter that makes our muscles contract). In that moment, I realized that I probably had a serious lack of acetylcholine in my body. My partner -- a senior scientist at NYU Langone's Institute for Systems Genetics -- agreed that it was worth exploring.

To support my theory, I ran my 23&Me data through Promethease and, sure enough, learned I have several genes that dramatically impair my ability to convert dietary choline to acetylcholine. Cue a deep dive into the role of acetylcholine in everything from Alzheimer's, to POTS (which I was diagnosed with at 20), to autism (which I was diagnosed with at 30). After several hours of research, I shut my laptop, got dressed, and went straight to the Vitamin Shoppe. That day, I began taking 500mg/day of CDP choline, and although I've yet to have bloodwork to tease out the impact of everything else I've been doing to save my body and brain, I did manage to find compelling evidence to support my theory.

Five days ago, I went back to the doctor to touch up my Botox, getting the same amount in the same place. The next day, I awoke with my frown intact. And then the next, and the next, and the next. It took so long that I wondered if it was less the choline supplementation and more that I'd just gotten a bad batch of Botox. But, lo and behold, FIVE DAYS later, it has finally taken effect.

And while I can't say for certain how much of my fitness, digestive, and cognitive gains can be credited to the choline supplementation, I do know that the dramatically increased muscle function between by brows is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

I've since gotten my mom on CDP choline (along w/other elements of the protocol), but I don't know what, if any impact it will have starting so late in life. But for those of us in this forum who share deficiencies in acetylcholine production, I hope my experience is helpful.
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Re: An Accidental Study: Botox, Acetylcholine, & the Effects of 5 Mos CDP Choline Supplementation

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DistinguishedHeathen wrote:For background, I'm a 37 F, 3/4 with a 71 yo 3/4 mom who recently went into significant cognitive decline. Though I didn't buy Dr. Bredesen's book or begin a full lifestyle intervention until I saw how bad mom had gotten in Sept., just a few months earlier, I stumbled upon what I believe is an important piece of the puzzle (in my/our case): Choline. And I happened upon it thanks to Botox.
Distinguished Heathen,

Thank you for sharing your accidental study. It is helpful to me. I take sleep medication that's anticholinergic, and I use a supplement from Empirical Labs called Phospholipid Complex, which contains phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylethanolamine, and phosphatidylinositol. This supplement has been discussed on this forum as a great source of choline for converting to acetylcholine. I switched to it some time ago.

Your study gives me a boost of confidence that I might actually be offsetting the use of my sleep medication with this supplement. (Of course, I'd like to get off the med, but it hasn't happened yet.)

I just searched the Promethease report I downloaded right before MyHeritage bought Promethease. I'm having trouble locating SNPs related to converting dietary choline to acetylcholine. Is there any chance you jotted them down and could share them here?

Thanks,
TheBrain
ApoE 4/4 - When I was in 7th grade, my fellow students in history class called me "The Brain" because I had such a memory for detail. I excelled at memorization and aced tests. This childhood memory helps me cope!
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Re: An Accidental Study: Botox, Acetylcholine, & the Effects of 5 Mos CDP Choline Supplementation

Post by DistinguishedHeathen »

TheBrain wrote:
DistinguishedHeathen wrote:For background, I'm a 37 F, 3/4 with a 71 yo 3/4 mom who recently went into significant cognitive decline. Though I didn't buy Dr. Bredesen's book or begin a full lifestyle intervention until I saw how bad mom had gotten in Sept., just a few months earlier, I stumbled upon what I believe is an important piece of the puzzle (in my/our case): Choline. And I happened upon it thanks to Botox.
Distinguished Heathen,

Thank you for sharing your accidental study. It is helpful to me. I take sleep medication that's anticholinergic, and I use a supplement from Empirical Labs called Phospholipid Complex, which contains phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylethanolamine, and phosphatidylinositol. This supplement has been discussed on this forum as a great source of choline for converting to acetylcholine. I switched to it some time ago.

Your study gives me a boost of confidence that I might actually be offsetting the use of my sleep medication with this supplement. (Of course, I'd like to get off the med, but it hasn't happened yet.)

I just searched the Promethease report I downloaded right before MyHeritage bought Promethease. I'm having trouble locating SNPs related to converting dietary choline to acetylcholine. Is there any chance you jotted them down and could share them here?

Thanks,
TheBrain
Alas, I didn't, but I can run my data through again and pull them out. And indeed, I hope supplementation is helping you -- I hope the same for my mom. She's taking Cymbalta which, although considered "dementia-safe" is still mildly anticholinergic.

It might be worth looking into CDP Choline, as there's some evidence it's more readily converted to acetylcholine than phosphatidlycholine.
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Re: An Accidental Study: Botox, Acetylcholine, & the Effects of 5 Mos CDP Choline Supplementation

Post by TheBrain »

DistinguishedHeathen wrote:Alas, I didn't, but I can run my data through again and pull them out. And indeed, I hope supplementation is helping you -- I hope the same for my mom. She's taking Cymbalta which, although considered "dementia-safe" is still mildly anticholinergic.

It might be worth looking into CDP Choline, as there's some evidence it's more readily converted to acetylcholine than phosphatidlycholine.
You are very kind to make that offer. And I'll check out CDP Choline. Thank you!
ApoE 4/4 - When I was in 7th grade, my fellow students in history class called me "The Brain" because I had such a memory for detail. I excelled at memorization and aced tests. This childhood memory helps me cope!
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Re: An Accidental Study: Botox, Acetylcholine, & the Effects of 5 Mos CDP Choline Supplementation

Post by TheBrain »

DistinguishedHeathen wrote:Alas, I didn't, but I can run my data through again and pull them out. And indeed, I hope supplementation is helping you -- I hope the same for my mom. She's taking Cymbalta which, although considered "dementia-safe" is still mildly anticholinergic.

It might be worth looking into CDP Choline, as there's some evidence it's more readily converted to acetylcholine than phosphatidlycholine.
I recently found an article that compared phosphatidylcholine, CDP choline, and Alpha GPC. I thought I sent the article to myself via email, but I can't find it and my Internet search isn't finding it either. Alpha GPC was considered the best option, followed by CDP choline, followed by phosphatidylcholine.

(I should mention that my Empirical Labs Phospholipid Complex supplement contains phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylethanolamine, and phosphatidylinositol. So I can't quite make a direct comparison to phosphatidylcholine.)

But I did find this article: Alpha GPC vs CDP Choline: What’s the difference? This article is more nuanced than the first one I read, and what's better for someone depends, so some folks might want to check that out.

Also, as I was searching through my email, I rediscovered a relevant thread (PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplementation). The link takes us directly to circular's post with some choline-related SNPs. I had looked up my SNPs and sent them to myself via email. Perhaps these are the same SNPs you were referring to.

Here are my results:
In order, I’m: TT, CG, AG

PEMT rs7946(T;T)
Phosphatidylethanolamine­-N-­methyltransferase (PEMT) catalyzes the synthesis of phosphatidylcholine and, thus, choline in the liver. Having one or more T nucleotides at rs7946 is associated with having lower phosphatidylcholine production in the liver with a second T increasing the effect. Phosphatidylcholine is a key component in all cell membranes and plays a very important role in the structure of the cell, which affects all biological functions. It is also a precursor for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, which has been shown to play a role in promoting REM sleep.

FADS1 rs174548(G;G)
This polymorphism in the fatty acid desaturase FADS1 gene affects phosphatidylcholine levels. The genotype rs174548(G;G) is associated with having lower phosphatidylcholine levels than either the intermediate (C;G) or the high (C;C) genotypes. Phosphatidylcholine is a key component in all cell membranes and plays a very important role in the structure of the cell, which affects all biological functions. It is also a precursor for the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, which has been shown to play a role in promoting REM sleep.

MTRR rs1801394(G;G)
This polymorphism has been shown to influence the way choline is partitioned between the Cdp-choline pathway and betaine synthesis. At recommended adequate intake (AI) levels of choline, women with this variant shuttled more choline towards phosphatidylcholine synthesis at the expense of betaine [TMG] synthesis. However, at levels above the AI, normal partitioning was restored, suggesting that women with this polymorphism may benefit from dietary choline intake above the current AI levels.
As I read through the discussion on that thread, I concluded that what works best for someone really depends. SusanJ, for example, had concluded here that BodyBio PC, which contains the same ingredients in the supplement I've been using, works best for her. And she had tried both Alpha GPC and Citicholine before. (I no longer recall why I chose Empirical Labs over BodyBio.)

I can't say I noticed anything when I took CDP choline or with what I'm taking now. So maybe I should give Alpha GPC a trial run.
ApoE 4/4 - When I was in 7th grade, my fellow students in history class called me "The Brain" because I had such a memory for detail. I excelled at memorization and aced tests. This childhood memory helps me cope!
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